Biserici crestine din America

[crinuta]

Despre autoritatea data apostolilor: Matt. 10:1,40 - Jesus declares to His apostles, "he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me." Jesus freely gives His authority to the apostles in order for them to effectively convert the world. Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - the apostles are given Christ's authority to make visible decisions on earth that will be ratified in heaven. God raises up humanity in Christ by exalting his chosen leaders and endowing them with the authority and grace they need to bring about the conversion of all. Without a central authority in the Church, there would be chaos (as there is in Protestantism). Luke 9:1; 10:19 - Jesus gives the apostles authority over the natural and the supernatural (diseases, demons, serpents, and scorpions). Luke 10:16 - Jesus tells His apostles, "he who hears you, hears Me." When we hear the bishops' teaching on the faith, we hear Christ Himself. Luke 22:29 - the Father gives the kingdom to the Son, and the Son gives the kingdom to the apostles. The gift is transferred from the Father to the Son to the apostles. Num 16:28 - the Father's authority is transferred to Moses. Moses does not speak on his own. This is a real transfer of authority. John 5:30 - similarly, Jesus as man does nothing of His own authority, but He acts under the authority of the Father. John 7:16-17 - Jesus as man states that His authority is not His own, but from God. He will transfer this authority to other men. John 8:28 - Jesus says He does nothing on His own authority. Similarly, the apostles will do nothing on their own authority. Their authority comes from God. John 12:49 - The father's authority is transferred to the Son. The Son does not speak on his own. This is a transfer of divine authority. John 13:20 - Jesus says, "he who receives anyone who I send, receives Me." He who receives the apostles, receives Christ Himself. He who rejects the apostles and their successors, rejects Christ. John 14:10 - Jesus says the Word He speaks is not His own authority, but from the Father. The gift is from the Father to Jesus to the apostles. John 16:14-15 - what the Father has, the Son has, and the Son gives it to the apostles. The authority is not lessened or mitigated. John 17:18; 20:21 - as the Father sends the Son, the Son sends the apostles. The apostles have divinely appointed authority. Acts 20:28 - the apostles are shepherds and guardians appointed by the Holy Spirit / 1 Peter 2:25 - Jesus is the Shepherd and Guardian. The apostles, by the power of the Spirit, share Christ's ministry and authority. Jer. 23:1-8; Ezek. 34:1-10 - the shepherds must shepherd the sheep, or they will be held accountable by God. Eph. 2:20 - the Christian faith is built upon the foundation of the apostles. The word "foundation" proves that it does not die with apostles, but carries on through succession. Eph. 2:20; Rev. 21:9,14 - the words "household," "Bride of the Lamb," the "new Jerusalem" are all metaphors for the Church whose foundation is the apostles. Top Crinuta si [bonjovi] minunea ei Fara Dumnezeu nimic nu e. Cine se increde in sine, cade rau! PRO LIFE, NOT PRO CHOICE!!! [url="http://www.staycatholic.com/Free%20Book.pdf"]Staycatholic[/url] [url="http://www.alabamacatholicresources.com/Bible.html"]Catholic answers[/url]

[crinuta]

II. Authority is Transferred by the Sacrament of Ordination Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ's own authority. Acts 1:20 - a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his "bishopric") is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, "I'll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own." Acts 1:22 - literally, "one must be ordained" to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ's authority. Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown. Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles. Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop. Acts 14:23 - the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church. Acts 15:22-27 - preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles. 2 Cor. 1:21-22 - Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee. Col 1:25 - Paul calls his position a divine "office." An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it's not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death. 1 Tim. 3:1 - Paul uses the word "episcopoi" (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul's use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him. 1 Tim. 4:14 - again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). 1 Tim. 5:22 - Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately. 2 Tim. 1:6 - Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands. 2 Tim. 4:1-6 - at end of Paul's life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop. 2 Tim. 2:2 - this verse shows God's intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles. Titus 1:5; Luke 10:1 - the elders of the Church are appointed and hold authority. God has His children participate in Christ's work. 1 John 4:6 - whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error (not just by reading the Bible and interpreting it for ourselves). Exodus 18:25-26 - Moses appoints various heads over the people of God. We see a hierarchy, a transfer of authority and succession. Exodus 40:15 - the physical anointing shows that God intended a perpetual priesthood with an identifiable unbroken succession. Numbers 3:3 - the sons of Aaron were formally "anointed" priests in "ordination" to minister in the priests' "office." Numbers 16:40 - shows God's intention of unbroken succession within His kingdom on earth. Unless a priest was ordained by Aaron and his descendants, he had no authority. Numbers 27:18-20 - shows God's intention that, through the "laying on of hands," one is commissioned and has authority. Deut. 34:9 - Moses laid hands upon Joshua, and because of this, Joshua was obeyed as successor, full of the spirit of wisdom. Sirach 45:15 - Moses ordains Aaron and anoints him with oil. There is a transfer of authority through formal ordination. Crinuta si [bonjovi] minunea ei Fara Dumnezeu nimic nu e. Cine se increde in sine, cade rau! PRO LIFE, NOT PRO CHOICE!!! [url="http://www.staycatholic.com/Free%20Book.pdf"]Staycatholic[/url] [url="http://www.alabamacatholicresources.com/Bible.html"]Catholic answers[/url]

[JuliaSM_2]

Pe vremea lui Isus si a lui Ioan Botezatorul se botezau in speta oameni adulti, nu copii, desi se mentioneaza in Biblie cateva cazuri cand cineva anume 'si toata casa lui' (implicit copiii,probabil) primeau botezul.

[AB_AC]

Off-topic Crinuta iti raspund pe PM ---------------------- [url="http://ospitalitateagaiei.blogspot.com/"]OspitalitateaGaiei[/url]

[Katya]

In legatura cu botezul, mie mi se pare ca ar fi tb sa existe undeva la vreun apostol mentiunea ca numai adultii se pot boteza, e un fapt prea important ca sa fie lasat asa la voia interpretarilor.In schimb, citim ca s-au botezat de ex "ca la 3000 de oameni" sau, cum a scris si Julia SM,ca s-a botezat cutare "cu toata casa lui", deci cu mic cu mare. Sigur ca tb sa fie tare frumos sa te botezi adult, in deplina cunostinta de cauza, am citit in Monica Fermo(Inviind pe drumul damascului)sau in Steinhardt ce impact poate avea acest moment,dar daca nu mai apuci virsta aia? Lumea se revolta daca un preot nu face slujba de inmormintare unui bebelus care a murit nebotezat, am citit aici pe forum multe, dar ce vina are preotul daca bebelusul nu era crestin? Eu mi-am botezat recent fetita si am trait in locul ei acele momente, as fi vrut sa rostesc eu in locul nasilor Crezul si lepadarile de satana, in fine, sa nu plictisesc cu ritualul, deci mi-a parut intr-un fel rau ca n-a fost ea insasi cea care rostea acel crez(sau macar eu[:)]), dar pe de alta parte ce fericire si ce usurare ca fetita mea e crestina.

[crinuta]

Citat:

citat din mesajul lui JuliaSM Pe vremea lui Isus si a lui Ioan Botezatorul se botezau in speta oameni adulti, nu copii, desi se mentioneaza in Biblie cateva cazuri cand cineva anume 'si toata casa lui' (implicit copiii,probabil) primeau botezul.

Evident ca se botezau si adultii, pt ca nu erau botezati, ceea ce difera in zilele noastre. Mai toti adultii sunt botezati, iar botezul este perfect valabil, indiferent ce cred ei, astfel incat re-botezarea este formala, nicidecum nu reprezinta Taina Botezului. Crinuta si [bonjovi] minunea ei Fara Dumnezeu nimic nu e. Cine se increde in sine, cade rau! PRO LIFE, NOT PRO CHOICE!!! [url="http://www.staycatholic.com/Free%20Book.pdf"]Staycatholic[/url] [url="http://www.alabamacatholicresources.com/Bible.html"]Catholic answers[/url]

[JuliaSM_2]

Nu sunt de acord cu explicatia asta,nici pe departe nu 'bate' cu textul biblic,insa fiecare e liber sa creada ce vrea. Nicaieri in Biblie nu se mentioneaza ca botezul sa fie strict o slujba facuta copiilor proaspat nascuti.Botezul e o marturie personala facuta cu gura,iar in zilele noastre marturia asta o fac nasii copilului,pentru ca,evident,bebele nu poate vorbi.

[JuliaSM_2]

Citat:

citat din mesajul lui Katya In legatura cu botezul, mie mi se pare ca ar fi tb sa existe undeva la vreun apostol mentiunea ca numai adultii se pot boteza, e un fapt prea important ca sa fie lasat asa la voia interpretarilor.

Scrie,si inca cum.Botezul e un act care se face in cunostinta de cauza,cand persoana intelege lucrurile spirituale si marturiseste o lepadare de pacate,e o moarte si o inviere,un simbol cum ca te lasi de cele vechi(nu numai de pacatul stramosesc,ci si de cele facute cu voia) si accepti o viata noua, o schimbare. Ce au a face copiii cu moartea si invierea,cum se schimba viata unui bebelus dupa botez?!

[Katya]

Pai sigur ca viata bebelusului se schimba dupa botez:e-adevarat ca deocamdata i se iarta doar pacatul stramosesc,dar bebele,viitorul adult, va avea sansa unui alt botez:cel al pocaintei-numit la noi taina spovedaniei, astfel ca el va putea fi mereu nou nout, in timp ce un adult, odata botezat, beneficiaza de iertarea si a pacatelor personale de pina la botez, dar dupa aceea? In al 2llea rind, cum scrie la Carte, ce e carne si singe ramine carne si singe, deci tb sa te nasti si din nou, din Duh Sfint, sa te-mbraci in Hristos, deci uite ce avantaj are bebele! Pe urma, zice Mintuitorul, daca nu vom bea Singele Lui si nu vom minca Trupul Lui, nu vom avea viata in noi,deci bebele, odata botezat, se poate impartasi!Pai e putin lucru?

[Katya]

Ce legatura are bebele cu moartea si invierea?Pai, cum zicea Michelle-usa la un alt sb, si tare bine zicea, nu putem sti nici ce vom face pina miine, d'apoi pina la virsta adulta a lui bebe, asa ca daca eu nu-l botez pe bebe, il pot lipsi pe vecie de vederea Mintuitorului, asa ca avantajele botezarii unui bebe mi se par infinit mai mari decit participarea lui in cunostinta de cauza la aceasta Taina, dar de fapt noi nu stim ce si cum 'vede' un bebe in acele momente, botezul e la fel in fond. A, si si Iisus a fost taiat imprejur tot de bebe, nu l-au intrebat parintii daca-i de acord sau nu,ei si-au luat aceasta responsabilitate, asa cum si-o iau si parintii ortodocsi/catolici pt pruncii lor. Acuma bine e pt toti odata botezati, de bebe sau de adulti, zile sa ne dea Domnul sa le facem pe toate.